Amritas is skeptical about Myers Briggs:
I have long been suspicious of its four-scale system based on this Skeptic's Dictionary entry:
Furthermore, no matter what your preferences, your behavior will still sometimes indicate contrasting behavior. Thus, no behavior can ever be used to falsify the [MBTI®] type, and any behavior can be used to verify it.
That is reminiscent of Chomskyanism: in theory, no 'surface' structure can be used to falsify a proposed (invisible, inaudible) 'underlying' structure since 'transformations' can account for anything. (In practice, there are constraints on transformations, but even so, there is no hard evidence for them or for the 'underlying' structures that they allegedly affect. Saying that magic spells are not omnipotent still does not address the issue of whether such spells exist at all.) Something that is not falsifiable is not scientific.
I have never looked at the Skeptic's Dictionary before. My instincts are to be partial to it based on its name - I am skeptical by nature, myself. But I am very disappointed by this particular entry. Most of it amounts to little more than an ad hominem attack, i.e. attacking Myers and Briggs (the originators of the test) as individuals because they (may have) made some mistakes, and Jung, who came up with most of the original concepts, but likely wouldn't have supported the way Myers and Briggs developed them. The only comment about the test itself is the one Amritas quoted, and that is demonstrably false. Myers Briggs does make verifiable predictions, the fact that the predictions aren't 100% accurate in no way invalidates them - the question is only whether they are statistically significant, and anyone who has worked with large samples knows that they are.
A coworker of mine once came back from a business seminar and told me about the most amazing experience. The participants of the seminar (about 60 people) were given a Myers Briggs test and divided into groups of 5-6 that were as homogeneous as possible. Each group was then given a task of building something out its component parts - evidently something quite difficult, though I don't know what it was. What made it amazing was not just the variance in how well the different groups performed, but how different their approach to the problem was. "Some of the groups just gave up and chatted at the back of the room", my coworker told me with amazement (my coworker was an SJ, so her reaction is not surprising), "Your group did the best" she added, by which she probably meant NT - I doubt that there were 5-6 INTPs in a group of 60 business seminar attendees. She reported different styles of problem solving and cooperating, e.g. the SJs divided up the task, etc.
There's a certain pseudoscientific idea that if something is hard to measure, it doesn't exist. People who have this notion will often discount soft and fluffy ideas like happiness. I, for one, think happiness is an exceedingly important concept, whether or not it is hard to measure. And though I know of know way to objectively compare the happiness of one person to another, I have no doubt that some people are happier than others, and I trust my own subjective evaluations of the matter to be significantly correlated with the truth. Myers Briggs tests have this problem - they are dependent on peoples' self evaluations regarding a lot of soft-and-fluffy questions like, "Direct-contact group discussions stimulate you and give you energy - Y/N". Nevertheless, according to this paper:
Several researchers have studied the construct validity of the MBTI scores. Carlyn (1977) found evidence indicating that "... a wealth of circumstantial evidence has been gathered, and results appear to be quite consistent with Jungian Theory" (p. 469). Validity of MBTI scores is typically established by correlating the scores with findings from various personality instruments and inventories of interest. Statistically significant correlations have been found between MBTI scores, behaviors reflective of MBTI constructs, and persons' self-assessment of their own MBTI type (DeVito, 1985; Myers & McCaully, 1989). Using factor analysis, Thompson and Borrello (1986) reported that the factors were largely discrete in their sample, and all items had factor pattern coefficients higher than .30. These results supported the structure of the MBTI. More recently, Tischler (1994) noted that "... factor analysis provided unusually strong evidence that the MBTI items are correlated with their intended scales: the scales are almost factorially pure" (Tischler, 1994, p. 30).
Furthermore, if you measure the test-retest accuracy not as a binary outcome (e.g. S or N) but as a quantitative score, you find very high correlations, i.e. people near the middle will often flip, but their numerical scores won't change much. If you still think, like the Skeptic that:
The profiles read like something from Omar the astrologer and seem to exemplify the Forer effect.
Then take my advice in the previous post, and look at the description of your opposite. Ask yourself: which is more like me?
UPDATE: The Skeptic also warns, "There is also a pernicious side to these profiles: they can lead to discrimination and poor career counseling." Of course, if you are talking about individual cases you have to take into account that Myers Briggs tests are not 100% accurate, and assuming that they are can lead to unfortunate results. This in no way falsifies the theory, though it may limit its usefulness. My personal experience is that it's very useful even when I get it wrong (i.e. my subjective impression doesn't agree with the "objective" test). Why? Because it gives me a powerful way to think about the subject: The beginning of wisdom is the definition of terms. A well-chosen terminology helps you to think, and understand. Whether or not I'm right about Razib's personality in the previous post, I'm confident that I'm right about the characteristics I examined, and that I understand something about his personality as a result.
UPDATE: I think that the main reason it's not taken more seriously in academia is that it was developed by non-academics. Who cares that it works in practice, and that thousands of profit-making enterprises that have to explain themselves to their shareholders spend money using it to help them do business. It doesn't have the right credentials!
Posted by David Boxenhorn at January 20, 2005 11:51 AMThe way people dismiss these ideas strikes me as similar to the way people dismiss religion. They don't accept truth that isn't "concrete", but what they really mean by that is "self-evident", although they don't admit that.
In other words, the fact that a theory works in practice doesn't count as evidence. The kind of evidence they take seriously is not so much scientific as physical. This severely limits their awareness of any knowledge to do with how human beings actually function. It also enables them to believe false theories that do not work, but which have apparently demonstrable/ material/ physical bases. I think this is a fundamentally different worldview than the truly moral one, being essentially materialistic and therefore amoral.
Critical rationalists, for example, dismiss experiential evidence as false because the mind can distort it; but this is a mistrust born of not understanding the mind. The only kind of evidence that theories can actually be based on in that case is uncontestable facts not derived from experiences. So in critical rationalism, "best theories" are held to be the most valid thing we have, but the criteria for "best theories" is implicitly supposed to be material in some way.
I think their vehemence and low level of reasoning on such matters reveals a kind of sensitivity to being exposed to truth which reveals their own errors of thinking. Interesting psychological phenomenon.
Posted by: Alice at January 20, 2005 06:01 PM PermalinkAlice, I don't think Myers Briggs is comparable to religion. Religion deals with things which are by definition (my definition) not falsifiable. Myers Briggs IS falsifiable, you just need to do a little statistics. I don't think it's falsifiable for a single person because you can't measure the internal state of a person's mind, and since people are very complex, their behavior doesn't map one-to-one with their internal state. But in aggregate you can ignore Myers Briggs claims about the mind and directly predict behavior, and it works!
By way of comparison, there is no way to prove that religious people are happier, because you can't measure a person's happiness. But you could, say, predict that religious people commit suicide less or suffer less from stress-related diseases, and test that. (I don't know if either are true.)
In the case of Myers Briggs and job performance - what you care about is the job performance itself, and the fact that the theory predicts this indirectly by way of statements about personality is irrelevant.
On the other hand, we are all human beings, and it should be obvious to all of us (barring a few psychotics) that happy people tend to behave in certain ways. The same can be said for the 4 dimensions of Myers Briggs. I can look inside myself and see that they are there, and I presume others are like me - even when they sometimes behave in unexpected ways.
Not sure about the 'There's a certain pseudoscientific idea that if something is hard to measure, it doesn't exist. ' If it can't be expressed in maths it's not science is one phrase i've heard. For myself. it if can't be measured, i want to know how it can.
Posted by: Adrian at January 20, 2005 08:38 PM PermalinkI'm not even sure what people are arguing about: that different people have different personalities? That personalities can be at least roughly categorized? That Myers-Briggs is at least a halfway decent attempt at categorizing them?
I expect we're all complicated enough that the future actions of any individual will never be completely predictable based on a personality test, but does anyone seriously doubt that some people tend to be more extroverted and others introverted, or did I maybe just make up two words that don't mean anything?
I'm not sure how well this scheme compares to others, the OCEAN one for example, but it almost has to be an improvement over the 4 vital humours theory.
Posted by: George Weinberg at January 21, 2005 02:23 AM PermalinkDavid,
I agree that Myers Briggs and religion aren't comparable- what I'm trying to get at is the criteria by which a certain approach to those things (and others as well) judges whether or not they are worth taking seriously.
There is a kind of scepticism that rejects both hard-to-measure and impossible-to-measure ideas as if neither can possibly contain truth, but I think it is unconscious. It strikes me as a type of impatience that mistakes itself for common-sense. One of the signs of it is people suddenly making arguments that fall significantly below their normal standards of reasoning.
It's not really relevant dismiss potentially useful, hard-to-measure theories unless the evidence is that they are false. They should just go into the "pending physically scientific physical verification" box, but still be used when it is useful to use them. I think a lot of people's scepticism extends to not recognising that box at all.
So I agree with George's implicit argument that there isn't any argument to be had here on Briggs Myers itself. If the worst thing that can be said against the tests is that "they can lead to discrimination"- well, that's abuse of the ideas, and any ideas can be abused. What does interest me is why anyone would feel moved to make such poor arguments in the first place.
Posted by: Alice at January 21, 2005 04:54 PM PermalinkThis is an interesting exchange about the MBTI:
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletters/328/7450/1244
Posted by: RS at February 8, 2005 09:59 PM PermalinkRS: Thank you. The problem is not with Myers Briggs types, but with the Myers Briggs Type Indicator - specifically the notion that the types are binary. Here's the crux, which I agree with:
The fundamental weakness of the MBTI, that must be appreciated, is that it classifies people together who have very different scores on the continuous dimensional measures, and then uses this categorisation to infer characteristics of those individuals. At the same time it contrasts those falling either side of the cut-off, but scoring closely numerically, as qualitatively different. For this approach to be valid the sixteen different personality types in the MBTI should contain some predictive power over and above the continuous dimensions they dichotomise – that is they should tell us more than simply that someone scored above or below the cut-off score on the continuous dimension. This is a view endorsed by the designers of the instrument
Posted by: David Boxenhorn at February 8, 2005 11:03 PM Permalink